Show #96 – Wayne Kimmel of SeventySix Capital Talks Gaming Investments & Sports Betting Industry Future

 

Video from Wayne Kimmel Interview

 

 

Show notes from Wayne Kimmel Interview

Ryan Knuppel: All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Knup Sports Show. I’m your host, Ryan Knuppel, here with you each and every episode. Thank you so much for taking a little time out of your day to listen to this show, to watch us, and today you are blessed. We are blessed to have a special guest. Wayne Kimmel, managing partner at SeventySix Capital is with us. Wayne, thank you for being here.

Wayne Kimmel: Hey, Ryan. Thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited to be on your show.

Ryan Knuppel: Hey, it’s my pleasure, and quite an honor to have you here. I know you’re one of the guests that I’ve been wanting to have and wanting to hear what you have to say, so thank you for the time in advance. And, I think the listeners will have a little treat here with this episode.

Wayne Kimmel: Well, excited to have some fun, talk sports, talk about the sports business, sports tech, all the exciting things that are happening right now in the world. I mean, as we were talking about prior to the show, we both want sports to come back. We can’t wait for the basketball season to start again, and NHL, and hopefully baseball figures out what they need to go do and get that going, and then roll right into the fall. Right? I mean, can’t wait.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah. I mean, I know. I’ve always said I love sports, right? I mean, everybody says that. They love sports. But then, you get to a point where you don’t have sports and you truly realize how much you love sports and how passionate we are about everything that goes on with sports.

Ryan Knuppel: I think we start to take it for granted when we have it, right? And then, we don’t. There’s no betting, there’s no fantasy sports, there’s no games to watch at night, there’s nothing to talk about with your buddies. You’re like, “Where are sports?” So we all have a new found appreciation for that and I think it’s coming back sooner than later here.

Wayne Kimmel: Yeah. I’m already starting to forget what channel ESPN is because there’s no reason to go to it now, right?

Ryan Knuppel: For sure.

Wayne Kimmel: But, I can’t wait to start getting back to that and look, it’s been great. I mean, even during all this time, we’ve been… One of our portfolio companies, VSIN, which is the sports betting network that we started with Brent Musburger and we’ve been broadcasting live throughout all this time. It’s been amazing.

Wayne Kimmel: We’ve been talking about, even though we didn’t have live sports to talk about, we certainly were talking about a little bit of NASCAR and even got into how to get into table tennis, at some point. But, really just also talking about just the ins and outs of the sports betting industry has been amazing to do that, as well.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah. Amazing. So give the audience a little bit about yourself. So how did you get started in this, I guess, in this gaming industry and then how did SeventySix Capital come about? And, I’d love to hear a little bit about your past and just what brought you from where you were to where you are today?

Wayne Kimmel: Yeah. I appreciate that. I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware, probably not a lot of people grew up in Delaware that you typically talk to. But, I grew up there, always a Philly sports fan because we’re right outside of Philadelphia. So always loved all the Philly sports teams. Went to college, the University of Maryland, then law school in Delaware and I was following in my dad’s footsteps and it was the mid nineties and this internet thing started.

Wayne Kimmel: And, I said, “I don’t know if I could just be a regular lawyer. I got to somehow get involved in this world of the internet.” And, at 29 I raised my first venture capital fund. I went out and raised $20 million and started investing in startup internet companies. And, we were really fortunate to get an opportunity to invest in some really incredible, passionate, smart, nice entrepreneurs that were doing big things.

Wayne Kimmel: So companies like Seamless Web, which is now public as GrubHub, was one of our portfolio companies. What a great success was that company had. The healthcare clinics you see inside of Walgreens today, that was one of our companies. And, that was a company that was just an idea of starting as healthcare clinics. And then, you had Minute Clinic and you had the healthcare clinics that we did and now Walgreens has them.

Wayne Kimmel: And then, getting to the sports side of things. We had an opportunity to invest with a group of people in Nutrisystem. And, Nutrisystem was just a plain weight loss company. I wouldn’t say plain. It was a pretty interesting company. But, it didn’t have a lot of pizazz. The CEO met Dan Marino on a golf course. And, I tell this story in my book, which is called Six Degrees of Wayne Kimmel.

Wayne Kimmel: I tell the story about how Mike Hagan met Dan Marino on a golf course and he says to him, “What do you do?” And, Mike says, “Yeah, I run this weight loss company, it’s called Nutrisystem. We’re bringing it back, it’s a pretty cool business.” And, Dan’s like, “I could lose about 12 pounds.” He reaches and from that moment on we were able to market to sports teams, sports channels like ESPN. We were able to go on to CNBC and market to men. And, men were like, “Wow, this is amazing.” And, that was a rocket ship for us. It was a top performing stock in America for five consecutive years, did amazing. The stock was under a dollar, went over $76 a share. And, it was just an incredible rocket and what it showed and it really proved was the power of sports to me and the power of an athlete.

Wayne Kimmel: So a few years ago, my partners and I at SeventySix Capital, we were at a meeting, we’re talking about what we’re doing, all of our investments, doing all these startup and early stage investments in the consumer internet world and health tech related things. And then, it dawned on us like, “Wait a second. What do we all love? Sports. What do we all do every single day? We want to watch sports. We want to play sports. We want our kids to be the next LeBron or Serena Williams. Wait a second. This is more than just a fun, little thing on the side, this is what everyone does. This is the next, next thing. This is the next giant industry, that’s going to be the biggest industry over the next 10 years.” And then, when you dig in, wow, right?

Wayne Kimmel: I mean, then you dig in and you say, “Well, technology, data, sensors, that’s being used not only at the professional levels but all the way down at the youth level of sports. Then you have this crazy world and I say crazy in a really a lovable sense of kids playing video games against each other competitively. So you have e-sports coming out with 200 colleges and universities now that offer scholarships in that world.

Ryan Knuppel: It’s nuts, yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: And then, as we both know, May 14th, 2018 Passbook gets overturned and wow, the sports betting industry goes from being this really, really cool cottage industry in Nevada to now rolling out across the country, over 20 states, 19 states are live. I mean, it is just unbelievable and the opportunities for innovation and technology and for entrepreneurs to create the next, next thing in the sports betting industry is better than ever. So that’s where we are.

Ryan Knuppel: It’s an amazing story, Wayne. I mean, you guys have come a long way and to be where you are now. I can’t imagine the number of projects you guys get pitched. I’d love to hear a little bit about some of the projects that maybe you guys are working on or that have been success stories. I know some of them personally but I’d love for you to share a few stories of some of the companies you’re working with and some of the success stories specifically in this, maybe the sports betting space or gaming space in general.

Wayne Kimmel: Sure. I mean, look at the sports betting industry and we say like, “Okay, there are opportunities here to, and I say this carefully, to unseat some of the incumbent players.

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: And, I don’t want to say left hook them because I don’t want to do that.

Ryan Knuppel: Right. It’s business.

Wayne Kimmel: But, we want to look at… We want to see their opportunities. Their opportunities to work with some of these really big sports betting companies that are out there and there’s opportunities to innovate and maybe we sell some of our companies to them. Maybe we partner with them. But, there’s an opportunity to truly innovate and push things forward.

Wayne Kimmel: So we look at it from a data collection perspective. So what are some of the companies that are collecting this data, that you can then have from it, from that perspective? So there’s a lot of sports tech companies that… Like one of our companies ShotTracker, which was doing amazing things in the basketball realm. But, if you can capture over a hundred movements a second, that a basketball player makes on a court, that data’s pretty valuable to someone who’s betting on sports.

Wayne Kimmel: So you now have that data, just like a hedge fund manager wants to have as much information as possible before they make a trade or before they write an algorithm to make a trade. Right? So there’s that part of it. Then there’s the data analytics piece, truly analyzing all this data. So we’re investors in a company called Swish Analytics, which is doing next level analytics all the way down to the prop level bet. So for the player, the player level prop bets.

Wayne Kimmel: So that’s really, really interesting what they’re doing and they’re using every kind of artificial intelligence. And, everything that you read about, are some of the greatest technologies out there, we’re now applying that to sports betting.

Ryan Knuppel: That’s amazing.

Wayne Kimmel: And then, you think about what else is there, right? From a sports betting perspective. Then there’s the media side of it.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: So the regular media, regular shows, like the ESPNs of the world, they have a show here or there. Fox has a show here and there, NBC has got a show about sports betting. But, if you could actually create the sports betting media network, that’s what we’re doing with VSIN. And, that’s where we’ve backed Brent Musburger and his nephew, Brian, who’s the CEO of VSIN. We’ve brought on incredible talent where we do shows 24 hours a day, talking sports betting. And, talking about the lines, talking how the lines are originated. And then, we even have our own show, very similar to the RedZone and Scott Hanson, we call it the GreenZone.

Wayne Kimmel: So when games are on or being played, a lot of people in the United States think you have to get your bet in before the game, like “Okay, the Eagles are playing the Dolphins, it’s minus three and a half that you got to get that in before the kickoff.” No, actually a lot of action occurs during the game. So we have the show called the GreenZone, which actually tracks and talks about, “Okay, the Dolphins just got a first down, what does that mean?” Right?

Ryan Knuppel: Wow. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Wayne Kimmel: And, what are the opportunities for you to now, as a better, to be able to take advantage?

Ryan Knuppel: Incredible.

Wayne Kimmel: And then, you think about… Then we have another amazing company in the sports betting industry called U.S. Integrity. And, you have to… I think these apply, a lot of times we talk about U.S. Integrity is like our… A lot of these plays are kind of offensive plays but you also need a defensive play. Right?

Wayne Kimmel: So from an integrity perspective, we just want to make sure that everything’s on the up and up. Because, if people are playing by the rules and things aren’t really happening the way they should and certain people have insight information or there’s things that shouldn’t… That’s just not good for all of us.

Wayne Kimmel: What U.S. Integrity does is works with teams and leagues and conferences and allows them and provides them almost with a Yahoo Finance screen or a Bloomberg terminal and says, “This is what’s going on.” So one of our clients is the SEC. So you pick a LSU/Mississippi game, right? What’s the line of that, in that game? Where’s all the money being bet, on what team and also where’s the money coming in? Is it all coming out of Las Vegas? Is it coming out of Pennsylvania? Is the money being bet in New Jersey? Why is there a lot of money being bet in, I don’t know, Indiana on a Mississippi/LSU game?

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: Is something a little off or there’s a lot of fans there or just people are thinking it’s a great game or something like that. So you can actually have all of this information and knowledge as a conference, as a team itself. You may… One of our clients is Penn State University. So you think about Penn State and you’re like, “Okay a lot of money’s being bet on a Penn State game, out of Mississippi and the sports books in Mississippi.

Wayne Kimmel: Now that could, again, be trouble or it could be, “Wait, we have a fan base down there. Maybe even an alumni base we didn’t even know about. We could market towards them.” So there’s so much data and information that you can learn in and around all this from the betting data, as well as making sure everything is doing things on the up and up.

Ryan Knuppel: Man, you guys have your hand in everything. And, when you put all that together, it’s really, when you think about, it’s everything that goes into the sports betting world. And, I think it’s just amazing. Some of the things you talked about there sounds super exciting to be a part of. First of all, because a lot of it’s stuff that’s never been done, right? I mean, VSIN is changing the way that we’re consuming media towards sports betting and things of that nature.

Ryan Knuppel: And, some of the technology companies are the same way, they’re just changing the way we’re doing things. And so, man, I can’t imagine the cutting edge things you see. That even the ones you’re not investing in and you’re probably getting pitched are probably amazing ideas. And, I can’t even imagine the amount of… Can you share just… I mean, are you guys getting pitched all day, every day because of the amount of companies that seem to be coming into this space are endless right now. And so, give us a little bit about what you’re seeing just from a new company startup perspective.

Wayne Kimmel: Well, that’s… Ryan, that’s what’s so exciting. What’s so exciting is, is that the entrepreneurs… It’s very similar to the tech gold rush and entrepreneurs are saying, “Wow, I can innovate. I can help move and help this industry move forward and transform the sports betting industry.” So we’re seeing, my God, I mean, it’s amazing. We see close to 150 new opportunities a month. Okay?

Ryan Knuppel: Wow.

Wayne Kimmel: So my investment team was Scott and James and these guys are plowing through all of these opportunities and we want to see all of them.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah, sure.

Wayne Kimmel: And, we want to be able to, again in some cases, they’re not right for us. Maybe they’re… We like to invest in the startups, in the very early stage of the businesses. Some are a little later stage, some may just not fit with what we’re doing right now. I always say, “We’re just venture capitalists, we can’t be right all the time.”

Ryan Knuppel: Hey.

Wayne Kimmel: But, it’s really exciting because what I love to share is, I don’t believe we’ve seen the Google, the Facebook or the Amazon of the sports betting industry yet. They’re coming. We will have companies like that in this industry.

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: And, I know that there are some… But, there’s been some great things that have happened. I mean, think about what’s already happened in a two year period, right?

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: A couple of highlights, right? The Flutter deal with FanDuel and FOX Bet, huge deal.

Ryan Knuppel: Huge deal. Monster. Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Wayne Kimmel: And, they haven’t even scratched the surface of what they’re about to do there. Then you have the Super Bowl, they sucked the air out of the Super Bowl was Barstool Sports, right?

Ryan Knuppel: Yep.

Wayne Kimmel: What they did with Penn National and during COVID, the heat of it all, right? The stock drops and then now it’s flown right back.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: And so, all of a sudden, Dave Portnoy and Erika Nardini look like geniuses again. Right?

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: And, we recently had their chief revenue officer on our SeventySix Capital Leadership Show.

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, cool.

Wayne Kimmel: And, it was amazing to have Deirdre Lester on, talking about all the things that they’re doing from a media perspective, as well as, sports betting world.

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: So what they did was, they put two worlds together that have never been together and it was really, really interesting. And then, in the midst of all of this COVID stuff, DraftKings goes public. Right? And, they use a unique structure of how they went public and the stocks just going crazy.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: So it just shows… And then, you think about this and I had the… On our SeventySix Capital Leadership Show, a week ago, I had the co founder of the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference on.

Ryan Knuppel: Cool.

Wayne Kimmel: And, her name’s Jessica Gelman and it was interesting talking to her about what’s happening here. And, on the stage at the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference earlier this year, a gentleman by the name of Jeff Yass from Susquehanna International Group talked about the industry of sports betting will be a trillion dollar industry, in the next 10 years.

Ryan Knuppel: Yep.

Wayne Kimmel: And, on the panel was Matthew Barry, my boy, and all these other guys. And, they’re like… They looked at him like, “I’ve never heard a trillion before.” Adam Silver said a half a billion, right?

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: 500 billion. But, like… And then, the revenue people talk about it from the [inaudible 00:18:12]. And, he’s like, “No, a trillion dollars. If we start trading like we trade on Wall Street, in the sports betting industry, we’re going there. And, we’re going to eclipse a trillion dollars because people are more passionate about sports betting.

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: I mean, I’d rather… Wouldn’t you rather put action on the Eagles/Giants or the Redskins/49ers versus buying IBM or [crosstalk 00:18:45] or something like that.

Ryan Knuppel: 100%.

Wayne Kimmel: I mean, that stuff’s okay but the other stuff, that gets you going.

Ryan Knuppel: Hundred percent. One of the things that really stood out to me about you guys and your company, I think this was at maybe the SBC conference or one of the conferences that I tuned into what you guys were doing. You said some athletes, some big names that were kind of, I don’t know if they’re backing you, part of the company or what. Can you touch a little bit on some of the, I guess, professional athletes or ex professional athletes that are part of SeventySix Capital?

Wayne Kimmel: Absolutely. I mean, I think part of our strategy and we think about this, right? If you’re investing in sports, it was one of the things that I noticed. So being in the sports industry and looking around at the conferences and talking to other people in the industry, there were a lot of executives. There were a lot of owners, executives, experts, but I’m like, “This is a sports conference, where are the athletes?” I’m looking around.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: We’re talking about amazing technologies for athletes and they’re not even in the room.

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: So I got Ralph Sampson shoe back here, right? So to have Ralph Samson, an NBA basketball Hall of Famer, when I say to him, “Let’s talk about ShotTracker. So ShotTracker puts a sensor in a basketball.” And, I throw the ball to him and he shakes it. And, he’s like, “I don’t hear anything in there.” And, he takes a regular ball and was like, “Wait, they’re the same weight, I don’t feel any difference. Let me play with this thing.” Right? I mean, check it out.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: That’s like… Now, as a high school, pretty good basketball player, I could kind of guess but I don’t have that feel like Ralph does. So to have those kinds of guys around our companies, mean so much. Their knowledge and their understanding, as well as their relationships and just having around. And, having a seven foot, four guy walk around with you and that was pretty cool.

Wayne Kimmel: And, the fact that he did what he did on the court and what he knows. At the same time, we also have really unique partnership. And, this is another thing that we set up was, we really needed to make sure we had even more access to the athletes. So we set up a partnership, a really great strategic partnership with Rubicon Talent. And, they’re a sports marketing agency. And, they work with professional athletes, Olympic athletes and sports broadcasters.

Wayne Kimmel: And, I believe we’re the only venture capital fund that has a partnership like this, with a sports marketing firm. And so, we’re able to not only access them for their knowledge around brands, their relationships with athletes and sports teams and just their years of experience of being in this industry. But, at the same time when their athletes and their clients, guys like Greg Olson and Emmanuel Sanders and Kerri Walsh Jennings from Olympic perspective or Lolo Jones, some of the top broadcasters, because they work with the Montage group, which represents Scott Van Pelt.

Ryan Knuppel: Cool.

Wayne Kimmel: And, Dick Vitale and Erin Andrews and the Mike Tirico. I mean, the list goes on. So Rubicon does all their marketing but if they want to think about something around the business side of things, if they are interested in the kind of the world that we want to be in or we just want some advice from them, we have access to that.

Ryan Knuppel: So cool.

Wayne Kimmel: And that’s a big thing for us.

Ryan Knuppel: It’s a huge plus and it’s very cool to see. I mean, I think it was Ryan Howard and Brian Westbrook that were at the event I was at, which is, you see the big names and everybody recognizes them. Right? And so, I’m sure having that expertise, as well, in not only in house, but just being able to tap into that, just to offer so much to you guys. So it’s very cool.

Wayne Kimmel: It’s huge. I mean, and then you think about… We’ve been talking a lot about the all around sports betting but you think about these sports, right?

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: So many of the athletes love video games and many of them are professional level, right?

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: So Emmanuel Sanders, who’s a big time gamer, he’s involved with us and our eSports company called Nerd Street Gamers so much so that he actually wore Nerd Street Gamer, his cleats.

Ryan Knuppel: Oh, nice.

Wayne Kimmel: Had the logos all over him when he was playing for the 49ers last week.

Ryan Knuppel: Super cool.

Wayne Kimmel: Super, super cool situation.

Ryan Knuppel: That’s awesome. Well, Wayne, I mean, I know I could take all day here and talk to you. I know you’re a busy man, so I’m not going to keep you much longer. I do have a couple of things. I wanted to kind of touch on the industry, as a whole.

Ryan Knuppel: So I’m talking now sports betting in the United States. We’ve seen some traction, we’ve seen, what are we up to? It’s hard to say the exact number of states that are legalized because everybody’s in such this different state but over 20 states now that are, in some capacity, legalizing sports betting.

Ryan Knuppel: What is your thought on the pace we’re at? And, maybe the pace to come, when things come back here, are we going to start seeing that accelerate a little bit more? Or, I guess, in five years are we going to be looking back and all states are legal? What are your thoughts on this, the future of this in the United States?

Wayne Kimmel: Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I think that the sports betting industry is just rocketing right now. As you said, we’re in the low twenties right now, I think you’ll be in the forties. You’ll be close to at least, I’d say at least 45 by five years from now. I mean, yes, there’ll be a couple that’ll hold out. Look at the progress that’s happening. I mean, we’re sitting here in June right now and there may be a bill on a ballot choice, right, in California.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: I mean, California is a whole nother country. So California, New York, there are some really, really big states that I think you’re going to go very soon. You’re seeing some other states that are moving mobile faster than they originally planned. We’re coming out of this economic downturn and COVID world that we’re in, states are looking for new revenues. But, they’re also recognizing that this is an amazing opportunity. Why allow so much money to go to a neighboring state or offshore somewhere? Where it’s just poof. Right?

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: And, there’s an opportunity for tax revenue, there’s an opportunity for jobs, opportunity for just the… I mean, there will be the Jeff Bezos of the world, there will be the Mark Zuckerberg’s of this industry. There’s no doubt about it.

Ryan Knuppel: True.

Wayne Kimmel: And, that will really push things forward and you think about all the things that are happening within sports now. The leagues themselves, many of them are coming up in the next couple of years, are coming up from new TV contracts. That’s going to be… Those media deals are going to be unbelievable because you’re going to have players in there that are going to be like… You’re like, “Wait a second, how does this all work?”

Wayne Kimmel: We’re all seeing how the growth of the OTT world, that no one ever thought was going to move this fast. Certainly, COVID-19 has accelerated some of that. It’s really amazing what’s happening. And, I look at it as just, as we are really we’re primed for the next 10 years for sports to be the number one industry in the United States.

Ryan Knuppel: Can we move Florida up that list? Maybe somehow bump Florida to the top of that list? Come on, I’m dying down here.

Wayne Kimmel: I know, whatever I can do. I mean, I would love it. I would love it. I mean, look, that’s again, Florida, California, New York, they’re countries. They’re not even state.

Ryan Knuppel: Right.

Wayne Kimmel: It would be unbelievable because when we were… I mean, remember the numbers, right? Coming out of… We didn’t even get into really March of this past year but you look at the 2019 numbers, where both Pennsylvania and New Jersey we’re based, it did basically the same amount of handle as Nevada. I mean, wow.

Ryan Knuppel: Crazy.

Wayne Kimmel: And, that was a year.

Ryan Knuppel: Amazing. Absolutely amazing. The space, it’s so fun. It’s exciting and I can tell you’re as passionate as anybody about this space. And, it’s super refreshing to see that energy coming out of you. You just exude with that energy, which I’m assuming is why your business is so successful and everything.

Ryan Knuppel: So Wayne, I truly appreciate you being here. Any last words for the audience? Any last words, first of all, and then how can somebody get ahold of you or your company, learn more about you guys, what’s the best path to that?

Wayne Kimmel: Yeah. Well, last couple of things I would say is, we are super early in the growth of the sports betting industry. And, just the innovation across all sports. So if you have a great idea, if you really are thinking about being able to make something better within the sports world, we at SeventySix Capital want to meet you, right? It’s very easy to get in touch with us on seventysixcapital.com, on our website.

Wayne Kimmel: I’m Wayne Kimmel all over the internet, across all social networks. We do our SeventySix Capitol Leadership Show every Wednesday night, every Sunday night. We do our showcases, where we showcase companies. Not even all of our companies, just really about the whole industry. We try to get the industry connected and involved.

Wayne Kimmel: I can’t wait to see everybody at all the conferences, hopefully. Whether it’s this fall or in the spring or whenever they happen, but in person. But, that’s where we want to meet these entrepreneurs that want to do the next, next thing.

Ryan Knuppel: Sure.

Wayne Kimmel: We want to get behind them, we want to be supportive of them, we want to be not only just the investors, but we want to be able to help think about how we can create something amazing together. Because, we all know and we all love sports. And, as we said earlier, right, people want to play it.

Ryan Knuppel: Yeah.

Wayne Kimmel: You want to watch it and you want your kid to hopefully grow up to be a superstar some day.

Ryan Knuppel: Absolutely. Well, Wayne, really appreciate it. Thank you for being here. One of the great guys in the industry. Appreciate you being here and giving us a little bit of time.

Wayne Kimmel: Thank you so much for having me and stay safe and be careful through all this. And, I can’t wait until we do this in person again soon.

Ryan Knuppel: Absolutely. We’re going to meet up at one of these conferences and I’ll get you a drink and we’ll share some stories around the next event.

Wayne Kimmel: That’d be awesome. Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan Knuppel: All right, that was Wayne Kimmel. One of the good guys in the industry, one of the smartest guys in the industry. Thank you guys so much for listening and tuning in. Until next time, have a great one and stay safe everyone. Take care.

 

 

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