Show #130 – Owner of Ginger Bets Jack Kelliher Joins the Knup Sports Show to Talk All Things Betting

Join us live as Jack Kelliher of Gingerbets comes on the show to talk to Ryan about all things gambling & betting. Hear how he took his struggles in the betting world and turned those into a professional gambling career.

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Show notes from Jack Kelliher Interview

Ryan Knuppel:

(silence) Hey, what’s going on everybody? Ryan Knuppel of the Knup Sports Show. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode. We are on episode 130 of this show, that’s crazy. Can not believe we’re at 130 episodes, but I really appreciate everyone tuning in each and every time and just giving us a little attention each day, that’s what it’s all about. So hopefully, we’re here to educate you, entertain you a little and just to have some fun, and really bring people in the industry, bring them to light. And today, I have a very special guest with me. Once again, as always, I have Jack Kelliher of Gingerbets. Jack, are you with me?

Jack Kelliher:

Well, yes, certainly, I’m okay here, loud and clear.

Ryan Knuppel:

Awesome. Great to connect on here. I really appreciate you coming on the show and just telling us a little bit about your story. It’s interesting to hear other people’s story and how they’ve kind of gotten into the bedding industry. And so, that’s typically where I like to start, jump right in. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What’s your background?

Jack Kelliher:

Background? Well, in the sports, betting it’s been an indifferent journey to say the least. First got introduced to sports betting probably 15, 16 years of age in the UK here. Went to school with few friends that liked to bet on the horses and things like that. A few where parents probably own horses, and that was the start of it really. Placing some bets at lunchtime, probably a few losing ones at first followed by the odd winner and I was hooked. And then it became football betting from an early age 18, 19 really heavily involved in football betting, and not successful at it at all.

Jack Kelliher:

So that was my introduction to it. I also recall quite a funny story. I played crickets at Lancashire 2nd XI as a young lad. My first ever game, I think, was away at Glamorgan. I remember traveling down on the team bus, playing cards in the back of the team bus and losing to all the senior pros there that were regular card players. They took me weeks wages off me, and I had a hard schooling in gambling to say the least, I really lost. So it got slightly better, I must say, but they were the hard yards. And I’m sure that there’s plenty of people that will relate to that.

Ryan Knuppel:

Yeah, we all learn our lessons at some point when we’re in the gambling space and it’s a… Hey cricket though, I mean, I’ve never even played cricket. Actually, I think I did experiment with cricket one time. I had a group of friends that were going to go play cricket and I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll go play.” But here in the US it’s all baseball, basketball, football, cricket’s not a thing. So is that one of your sports, is that what you kind of play a lot of?

Jack Kelliher:

Yeah, that was one of my sports definitely growing up. And it’s a funny sport for Americans to tune into because the concept of maybe playing four or five days in a test match and then ending with a draw, which is unheard of in American sports. You don’t have the draws in those sports really going to overtime, and there’s a winner or loser, but test cricket can go on for five days and it can end in a draw, crazy. But sport have been a big part of my life. I actually played football at Manchester United as a junior. I played England Cricket Under 15s and played for them as a junior. But then I suppose, got distracted as younger gents do at the ages of 17, 18, 19, discipline let me down. And before you know it, when you’re trying to play sport at professional level, the margins are fine. My attitude probably wasn’t the greatest at the time and before you know it, you’re slipping behind the 8-ball and people are overtaking you, and that’s the reality of sport or business as you get to the top of it.

Ryan Knuppel:

Absolutely. You got to grind, you got to perform, you can’t get lazy or somebody else is going to take it over. There’s always somebody hungry, always out there hungrier and more talented. There’s always someone more talented than you. So that’s interesting. Very good lesson for people listening to this business sport, whatever, a very good lesson. So Jack, tell me a little bit more, so you kind of got your feet wet, you got maybe your butt kicked as a gambler there early on. Where did that lead? Where did that lead from a betting or gambling perspective?

Jack Kelliher:

Well to be honest, it was tough. Anyone who bets and loses money regularly and constantly it’s not good for your lifestyle for whatever it is, work, sports, things like that. And fortunately for me, a very good friend of mine at school was involved in, not a betting syndicate as such, but had access to some betting software in the UK based around horse racing, effectively gave you a slight edge. I started working for these group of people as a bet placer. And through that experience, learned effectively how to bet certainly around horse racing, and understood what value was, understood what a true price was, and understood things like recording bets is so important to understand where you’re going well, where you’re not.

Jack Kelliher:

Basically, learned all the core disciplines that it requires to be a good sports better and probably, did that for the 12, 18 months. Sat alongside my friend at that time in a room no bigger than this, and we were betting from 8:00 AM through to 8:00 PM, 12 hours sessions, hundreds of bets each day, but trying to get four or five, 10% margin on each of these bets, trusting the mathematics behind it. I remember he had a wall chart with his accumulation of profit, I won’t go into the amounts, it’s not cool to talk about those things, but he was making a substantial living. And I basically copied, followed suit, and then built my own software doing a similar thing.

Jack Kelliher:

I had a job at the time at a company called [Aliana Hugh 00:05:52] Large Insurance Brokers. And I used to go to events, met finance directors, managing directors, people like that. They were all into horse racing, would tell them a bit about my hobby on the side, and I met one individual who changed my life really. He encouraged me to leave my job the next morning. He said, “You should do this yourself. Approach people, get stakes, invest on their behalf, give them a percentage profit of the returns,” and he was my first customer. And that was start of six years betting full-time for a living and it was cool, it was fun.

Ryan Knuppel:

That’s really cool. And some of the things that you said there really resonate with me, and being here in the US, and with all that’s going on in the US and there’s a lot of buzz going around about sports betting, and there’s a lot of new sports betters coming into this space, I don’t think there’s a very large percentage that think of it that way, right? They’re in this, “This is fun, this is exciting.” But if you truly won’t have an edge and you truly want to win, some of the things that you mentioned, tracking your bets, getting that edge, maybe investing in systems and numbers that are going to help you get that edge. I mean, there’s so many things that go into taking betting to another level if that’s what you want. I mean, there’s a couple paths you can go in the betting space, but if you want to win and you want to be a pro gambler, there’s probably thousands of tips that you could give these newcomers that are trying to figure it out. It’s just interesting to see that and to hear that from your side.

Jack Kelliher:

Definitely. I mean, I think the biggest lesson is, been around people that you see do it successfully. It’s like in work, if you work around people that are good at their job you learn from them. It’s the same in the sports betting world to the point where, I had people that I trained up, they’d go and work for me in shops, and then they would build up their own portfolio of money or their own part of money. They’d no longer work for me because they’d realize, “Wow, why would I be working for someone, because I know how to now manage this money?” So I think the UK or the US market slightly different, but I think there’s a natural evolution to learning about betting in the UK, maybe starts off with match betting where you can bet those sides of the coin or all three results for a small edge. That teaches you about the odds and about margin.

Jack Kelliher:

It might be four or 5% profit, but if you can stake a hundred pound across that match or $100 across that match, that’s four or $5 profit for no risk. People think, “Oh, that’s small money,” but when you start doing this 2, 3, 4, 10, 20 times a day, 365 days a year it becomes a living. It gets harder, it’s not quite that simple, but then you’ve got things like arbitrage bets, it loads a little software tools out there to help you with that. Certainly in the UK market, again, there’s no risk betting for people. It’s like side hustles are all the thing nowadays, aren’t they? But this is a genuine side hustle that can make you a grand a month, two grand a month. But then if you really want it and you put the effort in, you can build this up to 10, 20, 30 grand a month profit, it becomes a proper living.

Ryan Knuppel:

I 100% agree. And that’s interesting to hear, and I’m sure people listening… I actually want to interject and say, anyone listening, if you guys have questions, comments, we’re live here. So if you have questions, comments, we can put them on screen. This is a raw show. We’ll take questions, we’ll answer them on the spot, that’s all good. So feel free to inject comments or questions, and we can take those from here. So Jack, let’s talk a little different spin on this. So you just mentioned a lot of good things that can happen. Yeah, you can win hundreds and thousands and you can win money, with that is the risk and the dangers that come with this gambling side of things, there’s so many that are overlooked. So explain a little bit about the dangers that come along with being a pro gambler or any type of a gambler.

Jack Kelliher:

Well, being any gambler the dangers of that is that, if you don’t do it right it can affect other parts of your life quite dramatically. And I definitely experienced that when I was a losing punter. When you learn how to bet, you start to appreciate the value of the money, or the fact that you can bet consistently and often, but have a little edge in your favor, which means you minimize risk. And I think that that’s one of the biggest things to take out for anybody who likes to bet. If you’re somebody who bets on greyhounds dogs, NFL, if you learn how to get a little edge, you can have many wages throughout the day, but you might minimize your expected losses to 5% loss, 10% loss, where before, if you don’t know how to bet those expected losses would be 20% of your turnover, 30%, because you’re just gambling.

Jack Kelliher:

So I’d say that, there’s lots of information out there now to read, lots of data, lots of websites that educate you. And if anyone’s, I’ll say, struggling with gambling or anybody that’s a losing punter at the moment, I’d encourage them to look and read and record bets for a month and see what they’re good at, see what the bad at, and really take it seriously. Sports betting is a business. The best sports betters in the world probably are only make 10 to 15% margin, but they’re turning over big money. So that’s the opportunity out there, it’s not huge, it’s not that you make double bubble on everything. And you see these touts out there thinking, they’ll win that 50% ROI over a six week period. That’s no good. You want to look at somewhat over six months or a year.

Jack Kelliher:

So if you’d look at buying into systems, if you’re looking at products online, Twitter now is a really popular place for people to pop up and do short term, not scams, but businesses, they’re taking advantage of that media space. Do due diligence, look into them., Look at those people, ask for their record over a period of time. If they can’t give you that, they’re not worth the salt, they’ve not been and done it. One of the things that I, when I speak to people about sports betting, that I’m proud of is, I’ve been there and done it and bought that t-shirt and do it day in, day out. I’m not speaking from I’m a content, that’s not my skill, I can’t write. What I can do is, I could tell you if that’s a good or bad. And I think that there’s so much information out there for you to do that due diligence now, so do it. Don’t not do it

Ryan Knuppel:

Tons and tons great advice. This is Jack Kelliher, owner of Gingerbets. Speaking of, we haven’t even talked about Gingerbets, where did Gingerbets come from and tell us what it is, what’s what’s Gingerbets?

Jack Kelliher:

No prizes for guessing where it came from, hey?

Ryan Knuppel:

No prizes, but let us know, educate us.

Jack Kelliher:

So Gingerbets effectively is a website that’s, like I said, I learned from somebody who was extremely good at sports betting very successful using software mathematics we call it, EV betting, expected value betting, is a tool that automates horse racing and golf expected value bets. It runs throughout the day. If you’re a member of the UK and you have a sportsbook or app with Betfred, William Hill, Bet365, all these companies, you can log into Gingerbets’s software, drop down on the tab that you have a bookmaker, and it will give you expected value bets throughout the day. It’s a way of betting for fun, but putting the odds in your favor as a customer, and now moving that into golf content.

Jack Kelliher:

And you’ll see on the YouTube channel, we’ve got a little golf betting inside YouTube channel there that is a similar concept where I’ll be putting up value plays each week that are based on a bit of mathematical probabilities, basically. The edge is in your favor and over time we expect to win. This year I’m proud to say that, we’re plenty of points up. And some of the highlights, what would be the highlight? Collin Morikawa 50-1, he was early, I can’t remember the tournament he played, he won a 50-1. And I remember saying in that podcast and video, he won’t beat 50-1 maybe ever again in his career, he’s not good a golfer. And he nearly won the latest major, the US Open for all the way in a battle to win at the bet nine last week. But that’s what it’s about. Gingerbets is about giving people value, making it easy, you log in, all the work’s done for you. It’s a way of betting fun with having the odds in your favor. No, I’m doing the research, the computer’s doing the research.

Ryan Knuppel:

Right. You’re putting it together though.

Jack Kelliher:

And I’m bringing it to bring it to life here.

Ryan Knuppel:

Yeah. And we’re showing the YouTube channel here side by side, for those of you watching on video. So make sure you get out there and subscribe to Gingerbets golf betting insights out on YouTube, and you can find them, I think, you can see all the social handles here, but Gingerbets, ginger_bets all of the above. So I love what you’re doing with that, that’s awesome. So where are you going with this, where are you headed with Gingerbets, are you taking it to other sports, is it just for fun, where are you headed with it?

Jack Kelliher:

Look, I’m trying to take it to other sports. It’s been not as an easy journey as I would hope to build in software with people, it’s not my skillset, I’m not a software developer. So I’ve outsourced this to people around the world, got it to a certain stage, and now ready to get it out there to the marketplace. So I think it will be available to purchase a membership in the next couple of weeks. And it’s free at the moment, all free. We will be a subscription based model moving forward, so that’s the plan. The long-term aim, the opportunity is in United States, isn’t it? So if you look at the United States, and you’ve got all the different states where people have different sportsbooks. If we’re able to aggregate all that data from the different sports bets, bring the true price lines across the industry and in each of the different states, that’d be a dream. It’s miles away but hey, you’ve got to dream.

Ryan Knuppel:

Dream, work hard, you’ll get there, you’ll you’ll definitely get there. So gingerbets.com, definitely, head out, check out his YouTube. I mean, Jack, where else are we heading? You mentioned the United States, let’s talk a little bit about just the industry. I know you follow the industry heavily and across the globe. We’re always seeing exciting news coming in the United States, any perceptions that you’re seeing from your angle that you’re seeing from US?

Jack Kelliher:

Well, first of all, I think it’s going to be incredible opportunity for some sportsbooks out there, isn’t it? People are going to be jumping at the bet. I saw something this week, this company, I think its Sports Trade, I can’t remember the name, it raised $36 million this week, very cool concept. Basically what they’re doing is, they’re taking a product in sports betting and bringing it to a different audience and bringing a different spin on it, aren’t they? It’s very much built like a financial market, allowing you to buy and sell instantly. There is one product that I think is going to be quite big in the US, and it’s a company called BetSwap. The owner there, Brent Winston, is someone that I know quite well. And, Brent, he’s pushing his products into some of the leading bookmakers in the US. I believe you might see it in a place near you in Q4.

Jack Kelliher:

What this say is, it’s like an evolution of cash out. So cash out where you’re dictated to by the sportsbook, the sportsbook offers you a deal to cash out there and then, that’s the only offer that you get. What this product will allow the sportsbook to do is, for you to sell your bets to any other member on that platform. So any of the members at William Hill, BetMGM, they will be able to purchase that bet slip. So I think that’s a really cool concept that’s going to be coming to the United States. And I think he’ll be here at Q4 this year, watch this space.

Ryan Knuppel:

I love the innovation and the creativity that’s going on right now, especially here in the US. Money says a lot. So there’s a lot of money coming into the industry, there’s a lot going on, but then that sparks the creativity and all of these new products and new ideas, maybe aren’t all new, right? I mean, some of these has been around forever in different markets, but I think we’re starting to see some innovation around some of it that we’re like, “Ooh, that’s a little different angle than I’ve ever seen on that,” or, “oh, okay, that’s, that’s a cool concept that I think could be big.” We’re seeing a lot of that and news out every day of another product or another service that’s going to have a slight different angle on something. So I just love the innovation and creativity that people are coming up with in this space.

Jack Kelliher:

Couldn’t agree more on this. What I’ve seen with some of the American concepts, I’m not that close to them, but they’re taking what’s well in the European markets and the UK market, and we’ve been established for 20 years, and they’re Americanizing it. They’re making it cooler, they’re making it big, and they’re making it better.

Ryan Knuppel:

It’s what we do.

Jack Kelliher:

And it’s incredible. I think I saw BallStreet Trading, I think, New York based company.

Ryan Knuppel:

Yeah, BallStreet. My bother, Scott. I love BallStreet.

Jack Kelliher:

Yes, Scott, I don’t know his surname, but I remember following Scott two years ago when that was just starting out, and then I was part of the soft launch as a beta tester. It’s just is cool. It’s crazy cool. And it’s a concept that’s been there before, but it’s bringing it to life in a different way, in a cooler way. I like to say Americanizing it, making it bigger, better, and cooler, and faster.

Ryan Knuppel:

Just on a side note, I met Scott at the SBC conference back right when, I think 2019, kind of things were just starting to pick up a little bit. And man, what a good guy, what a great concept he has going on. So shameless plug for BallStreet, but they’re doing a great job.

Jack Kelliher:

And I don’t know any of these guys, but I just genuinely, honestly, do not have a clue, but I just think that they’re cool-

Ryan Knuppel:

Yeah, but you’re seeing it. You’re seeing things that you like, you’re seeing things that are just innovative and different, and that’s cool. That’s what it’s all about. And I couldn’t agree with you more. I wanted to say, just huge opportunities for these operators, for these operators all positioning in these different states. That game to me is like a game within the game that just intrigues me like, “Oh, who’s going to win in Michigan?” Or, “Hey, when Florida legalizes, which sportsbooks are going to get in with the tribes and things of that nature?” That is massive. And then we even saw things like today where I think I read that Sports Illustrated is starting to work on a sportsbook, the SI sportsbook or something like that. So alongside 888sport and Sports Illustrated coming together. And so, there’s going to be a lot of this happening, a lot of this positioning and the new ones trying to come in and man, it’s fun to watch from the outside looking in.

Jack Kelliher:

Yeah. And that means that your DraftKings, your William Hills, your BetMGMs, they’re going to have to up their game. They’re going to have to stay on top of their game otherwise, some of the market share that’s out there, people will be aggressive around doing it. I mean, look what Barstool have done out there in the US, I’m not saying that the greatest company in the world and in fact, I probably don’t agree with how they go about promoting betting because that is really how you’re going after those problem gamblers, everything’s parlay betting. If you know anyone who knows about bedding is hard enough to win a single nevermind when you’re losing your edge across five and 10 bets.

Ryan Knuppel:

It’s so fun.

Jack Kelliher:

It’s so fun, but that is only for the odd bet and the small bet. If you want to bet consistently that is not the way to do it unless you’ve got a big edge, and you trying to hide your bet.

Ryan Knuppel:

For sure. So man, I could talk to you all day long. I really could. I think we should do this more often and just talk a little bit about sports betting. But what else, what did I miss? I only want to keep you a few more minutes, I know you’re a busy man, but where else do you want to go, anything else you want to bring up?

Jack Kelliher:

Well, I suppose it’s going out to a few people it would be silly of me not to mention, if you’re in the content horse racing sports data space, then hit me up. A company that I work for, one of the leading sports data providers in the world, and worked with all the major rights holders in the world so it’s something that I’ve got experience of helping companies with, whether that be sportsbooks, content companies, all that stuff. So shameless plug, you’ve done it once, I’ll match you and will go. Well, I love my shameless plugs.

Ryan Knuppel:

That’s good. That’s a good point, you deserve that. No, that’s good.

Jack Kelliher:

I love the industry and I love helping people who are looking to do cool stuff in the industry.

Ryan Knuppel:

How would they get ahold of you, what’s the best way of getting ahold of you if somebody just wants chat?

Jack Kelliher:

LinkedIn would be the place, Jack Kelliher in LinkedIn. You’ll see the ginger icon there that’s a mini cartoon replica of myself, and our I’ll hit you up straight away.

Ryan Knuppel:

That’s some creative side doing, not the real, you got the cartoon eyes.

Jack Kelliher:

Someplace to hide if it goes wrong someday.

Ryan Knuppel:

That’s funny. Well, Jack, I really appreciate you being here. Audience, I appreciate you listening and tuning in. If you ever have questions, definitely head out to Gingerbets, hit up Jack on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is so powerful, I’ve loved LinkedIn, I’ve loved connecting with, I mean, that’s where we met each other. I’m sure it was on LinkedIn initially. So definitely a good platform for this industry to really connect with people and talk to people. So definitely if you’re listening to this and want to talk to Jack, head over there and talk to him, tell him Ryan sent you, you’ll be good.

Jack Kelliher:

No, thank you for having me. Ryan, really appreciate your time today, I’ve loved it. And all the best with your crazy journey, I can see the amount of effort that you’ve put into what you’re doing over the last two years. So every credit for the successes that you’re having, I’ve been watching from afar.

Ryan Knuppel:

I appreciate it. I really appreciate you tuning in. I mean, it’s all about content. Content, content, content, that’s what we’re here in this show, having you on, getting some advice. I think you brought some great advice today, not to drag this on but just that I really want people that are watching this I hope that resonates with them, because you know there’s going to be a whole number of people trying to take that step from casual gambler to pro gambler. There’s just going to be a whole another slew of them in the United States trying to do that. And so, reach out to Jack, he can get you some advice.

Jack Kelliher:

Write your bets down for one month and deal with the small stakes. Honestly, it changed my life, I went from losing money every single month to giving up a really good job, and it being a full-time living. So anyone can do it, because I’m not clever all I did was, learn from someone, follow them, and listen and educate myself, anyone can do that. So record your bets.

Ryan Knuppel:

Cool. Cool. All right, Jack, I’ll let you go. I appreciate it. That was Jack Kelliher of Gingerbets. One of the good guys in the industry. Really appreciate Jack coming on and giving us some advice. And I really appreciate all of you guys listening in. We’ve had lots of listeners, this will be also posted up later for view back. So if you’re there and you want comments, you have questions, put it out on this video we’ll definitely circle back and answer anything we can. Until next time, Ryan Knuppel, Knup Sports Show, that was Jack Kelliher. Really appreciate everybody being here. Have a great day. Bye-bye.

 

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